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Referenced as Related to: # 6578 # 14491 Not before: # 15097
avatar rdeutz
rdeutz
3 Apr 2017

Situation today

We are shipping two backend templates with Joomla! 3.x: Isis and Hathor. While Isis is widely used and the first template we test and implement functionality Hathor is badly supported and has a lot of issues.

Plans for the future

It is already decided to remove Hathor in Joomla 4.

Proposal

For Joomla 3.7 we are not adding the new features we have implemented into Joomla and make available over the backend to Hathor. We will ship Hathor with the package but we not feel bound to implement any new feature into Hathor for the future.

Effects on accessibility

Hathor was build to increase the accessibility, it served the purpose for a while but over the time Isis got better and better and technology also got better so that Hathor is not really a more accessible template. It is possible that it is not even used.

Summery

Make anything we have added to Joomla! also run under Hathor becomes a burden and stops innovation. Removing it would be the clearer message but we need to keep it because of B/C. Anyone who is using Hathor can do this in the future and as long as we have a 3.x but maybe he/she in not able to use all new features.

avatar rdeutz rdeutz - open - 3 Apr 2017
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - change - 3 Apr 2017
Labels Added: No Code Attached Yet
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - labeled - 3 Apr 2017
avatar rdeutz rdeutz - edited - 3 Apr 2017
avatar brianteeman
brianteeman - comment - 3 Apr 2017

Fine by me - in some ways hathor is already less accessible than isis anyway

avatar dgt41
dgt41 - comment - 3 Apr 2017

Haha, I read that as Heathrow...

avatar rdeutz rdeutz - change - 3 Apr 2017
Title
[RTC] Freeze Harthow backend template in the current state
[RFC] Freeze Harthow backend template in the current state
avatar rdeutz rdeutz - edited - 3 Apr 2017
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - change - 3 Apr 2017
Title
[RFC] Freeze Hathor backend template in the current state
[RFC] Freeze Harthor backend template in the current state
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - edited - 3 Apr 2017
avatar dgt41 dgt41 - change - 3 Apr 2017
The description was changed
Title
[RFC] Freeze Harthow backend template in the current state
[RFC] Freeze Hathor backend template in the current state
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - change - 3 Apr 2017
The description was changed
Title
[RFC] Freeze Harthor backend template in the current state
[RFC] Freeze Hathor backend template in the current state
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - edited - 3 Apr 2017
avatar brianteeman brianteeman - change - 3 Apr 2017
The description was changed
avatar brianteeman brianteeman - edited - 3 Apr 2017
avatar izharaazmi
izharaazmi - comment - 3 Apr 2017

I'm all in for this. However, it would be bad if things break while using Hathor. As far I'm aware, the Admin Menu Manager feature breaks the Menu Manager in Hathor very badly.

Not implementing further features is fine. But not taking care of what already is there would be a fake B/C. In that case removing it would be way better option.

In case we decide to keep it for now, I'd suggest fixing broken things at least. From my end I can attempt to fix Menu Manager at priority. Please let me know if I should.

avatar puneet0191
puneet0191 - comment - 4 Apr 2017

I agree with the proposal. 👍

avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - change - 4 Apr 2017
The description was changed
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - edited - 4 Apr 2017
avatar franz-wohlkoenig franz-wohlkoenig - change - 4 Apr 2017
Category Templates (admin)
avatar franz-wohlkoenig franz-wohlkoenig - change - 4 Apr 2017
Status New Needs Review
avatar laoneo
laoneo - comment - 4 Apr 2017

I agree here with @izharaazmi. If we don't support all features, then it is broken and thus needs to be removed from the installation package. The sites who do upgrade will still have it installed, so no change (despite the fact that not all features do work). But it should not be there on new installs. We need to clearly communicate that in the release notes that hathor is broken for upgrades and that it will not be available from 3.7 onwards.

avatar alikon
alikon - comment - 4 Apr 2017

IMHO should be removed ....... who is still using Hathor ?

avatar infograf768
infograf768 - comment - 4 Apr 2017

Not only Admin menus, Multilingual associations have also issues.
Basically all modals have issues as they use Search Tools.

avatar AlexRed
AlexRed - comment - 4 Apr 2017

maybe we should be inserted an alert message in the control panel (like for the old PHP version or for the editor update ecc..) to display if the template Hathor is set to default.

avatar brianteeman
brianteeman - comment - 4 Apr 2017

@alexred suggestion is a good one

Something like

"We have detected that you are using the Hathor Admin template. This may not work well with some Joomla features and we recommend that you switch to use the Isis template "

avatar infograf768
infograf768 - comment - 4 Apr 2017

Just did a test creating a menu item with Hathor... Then I switched to Isis and tried to create a menu item: I got a Fatal Error:

Fatal error: Cannot use object of type stdClass as array in /administrator/components/com_menus/models/item.php on line 603

avatar infograf768
infograf768 - comment - 4 Apr 2017

My conclusion is that I think that we have at least to solve the menu issue and indeed display the Alert proposed above.

avatar Gavakshi
Gavakshi - comment - 4 Apr 2017

@izharaazmi I hope if things can be fixed then what else can be a better option.

avatar Bakual
Bakual - comment - 4 Apr 2017

maybe we should be inserted an alert message in the control panel (like for the old PHP version or for the editor update ecc..) to display if the template Hathor is set to default.

That would have to be a postinstall message. Please don't do messages in the cPanel itself.

avatar infograf768
infograf768 - comment - 5 Apr 2017

Basically, if we do not do it, this is a release blocker.

avatar laoneo
laoneo - comment - 5 Apr 2017

I'm with @infograf768. We should not ship something which is broken and we have no intention to fix it.

avatar izharaazmi
izharaazmi - comment - 5 Apr 2017

I am trying to spare some time to fix it myself, though its likely not
possible before this weekend I guess.

However, I vote for removing hathor as menu manager is not the only issue
with it, and I don't know much about others.

avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - change - 5 Apr 2017
The description was changed
avatar joomla-cms-bot joomla-cms-bot - edited - 5 Apr 2017
avatar infograf768 infograf768 - change - 5 Apr 2017
Priority Medium Critical
avatar mbabker
mbabker - comment - 5 Apr 2017

If the 3.6.5 Hathor can work with 3.7, I'd say move it to a joomla-extensions/hathor repo and pull it from the distro with 3.7. Then if it ever gets functionally updated to work with 3.7 an update can be pushed out separate from the main release schedule (decoupled extension style). Otherwise it can sit there like the GeSHI content plugin and never get updated if there's no interest. But in the interest of fulfilling our B/C promises, we at least have to make it look like we're making an effort unless things are really just fatally broken (that same joke about there being 3 SQL Server users probably applies to Hathor too).

avatar izharaazmi
izharaazmi - comment - 5 Apr 2017

The problem is that unfortunately 3.6.5 state of Hathor too won't work with
3.7, as far as I know.

avatar izharaazmi
izharaazmi - comment - 5 Apr 2017

I tried fixing Menu manager but searchtools is heavily broken in hathor.
Can't do much about that.

I am doing a PR now to remove Hathor as a separator repo. Rest is on the
teams decision to accept it or close.

avatar laoneo
laoneo - comment - 5 Apr 2017

Fyi https://twitter.com/laoneo/status/849625687338221569, there are people using hathor so we need a proper way to migrate them.

avatar alex7r
alex7r - comment - 5 Apr 2017

Sounds like "migrating not working feature". )
p.s. from my personal experience with Hathor only

avatar Bakual
Bakual - comment - 5 Apr 2017

Migrating isn't hard. If Hathor isn't available anymore, they are migrated automatically to Isis (an error is shown that "the template isn't available for this view" and Isis is the fallback) :p

avatar N6REJ
N6REJ - comment - 6 Apr 2017

Is there anyone like Andy that can test accessibility anymore? @brianteeman aren't you well versed in that?

avatar brianteeman
brianteeman - comment - 6 Apr 2017

No idea what you are aksing @N6REJ but the reality from an a11y perspective is that hathor really isnt much better (if at all) than isis

avatar brianteeman
brianteeman - comment - 7 Apr 2017

Has there been a decision made about this?

avatar rdeutz
rdeutz - comment - 7 Apr 2017

not yet

avatar brianteeman
brianteeman - comment - 7 Apr 2017

I asked because of this comment by @franz-wohlkoenig

#14491 (comment)

avatar rdeutz
rdeutz - comment - 7 Apr 2017

as I said no decision is made

avatar wilsonge
wilsonge - comment - 16 Apr 2017

There has been a decision made. Hathor will continue to ship with J3.x however we do not guarantee feature parity of all Joomla features (i.e. everything that works now should continue to work but we don't guarantee new features like fields and associations etc will continue to work fully - although we won't obviously reject any PR's if they come in)

avatar wilsonge wilsonge - change - 16 Apr 2017
The description was changed
Status Needs Review Closed
Closed_Date 0000-00-00 00:00:00 2017-04-16 14:24:10
Closed_By wilsonge
avatar wilsonge wilsonge - close - 16 Apr 2017

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