@jeckodevelopment
Ha!
What to say... maybe contact the Official T9N WG as it seems they take care of the Core strings...
I do agree there's an issue and IMHO a cleaning is necessary but I guess at this point, I'm not the one to ask for.

But, also if you are not in that Team, i guess you can help us facing this situation :)

@stellainformatica , @marijkestuivenberg as group co-coordinator, can you please help with this?
@infograf768 , please? :)

As a french and knowing what that means, I would like to keep my head on my shoulders.

As a french and knowing what that means, I would like to keep my head on my shoulders.

That is a very good idea.

The Translation Teams are volunteers, as we all are. Some do things at once, others are late. Others disappear.
The Translation Teams Coordination is doing its best by mails and forum posts to get as many languages updated as possible.

If someone volunteers to send —again— mails to the coordinators, their mails and forum links are here: https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html .

Complaining all the time will not solve this problem. Deleting these somehow un-updated packs neither as they can be useful to users (most changes are done in admin).

thank you @infograf768
It's not a complain, but a "notice".

In fact my approach was "What can we do to face this issue?".
All the Joomla's teams are volunteers, but sometimes some volunteers need to be taken by the hand to get things done.

and sometimes other people would be only too happy to help if they had the
opportunity to do so. Opening up the process will enable that

On 1 August 2016 at 16:49, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com wrote:

thank you @infograf768 https://github.com/infograf768
It's not a complain, but a "notice".

In fact my approach was "What can we do to face this issue?".
All the Joomla's teams are volunteers, but sometimes some volunteers need
to be taken by the hand to get things done.

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Ask to join the Coordination if you want to help. It is easy. Contact Marijke, Stella or Mig

@brianteeman how the process could be opened? What do you mean?

by stopping the translation being the private role of a select few and
using an open translation platform that would allow anyone to contribute.
As you have seen some languages are up to THREE years out of date. Yet no
one is able to contribute to fix those languages

On 1 August 2016 at 16:54, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com wrote:

@brianteeman https://github.com/brianteeman how the process could be
opened? What do you mean?

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Sometimes, we talked about Crowdin.com as standard localization tool, since it's currently used for different projects like com_patchtester and the imagery for Joomla 3.6

The tool doesnt matter - its the process that matters and being open to contribution.

"You do not have the required permissions to read topics within this forum."

Log in to the Joomla Forum, check out this page, and see what it says at the bottom! ^^^

http://forum.joomla.org/viewforum.php?f=511

Translations remain a closed shop.

@brianteeman but the tool can also help the workflow, obviously.

Yes, a platform tool is one thing and makes possible to work in a real collaborative and open way and this is what is happening with other official projects other than the core CMS. A collaborative tool is a must have, but also team management and communication are 2 other parts that, if well managed, will lead to success. Just have a look to what have been done for Patchtester, Issue tracker, Jdocs, 3.5 Landing page... (But it also means MAT and I are working every day to motivate and help translators )

that's exactly what i said here:

sometimes some volunteers need to be taken by the hand to get things done.

A number of Translation Teams are using crowdin for the core translations. It has been tested last year and opened up for every TT that prefers to work with it. As with most things, one likes it, the other doesn't. It's up to them.

Personally I like crowdin and it works great for the Dutch TT. But I don't think it makes much sense to fire translators that have done a great job, just because they don't prefer to use that tool and have their own workflow. Whenever their language pack is up to date, there is no reason to enforce things upon them. Though a team can always be contacted, see https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html

If a translation pack is not up to date, one can always contact the translator him/her self or ask the coordination team to help out. In most cases we will try to get hold of the former lead of the team, and try to establish collaboration, either on crowdin or as they prefer. If there is no reply from a former leader of a language, we will communicate how a new one can take over, whenever there is someone.

For the rest, I can only agree on JM's comment,

Complaining all the time will not solve this problem. Deleting these somehow un-updated packs neither as they can be useful to users (most changes are done in admin).

The tool doesnt matter - its the process that matters and being open to contribution.

Totally agree on the 2nd part and no, Jean-Marie, you can't say the current process is open.
But to be clear, a platform such as Crowdin (or others) is also THE tool to get volunteers involved. Just as an example, such as the "GitHub" way (but even easier), Crowdin allows all kind of users to get involved, they can contribute, improve and/or maintain the language packs, and even if the process is "closed", people can still vote to improve the strings. And so, they have the feeling to be involved.

@jeckodevelopment, don't ask MAT how many hours per day he spends to manage and motivate the translators.

As said, no one wants to fire on translators that did and continue doing a very hard and good work.
The suggestion of a tool is to "uniform" all the workflow, like Github and to have an open place where to check how things are going.

Furthermore, using a tool would improve the efficiency of the translation process...

Even though I completely agree on that it would improve the efficiency of the translation process, if 'to unify the workflow' means enforcing it upon the teams, and results in people that contributed more then 8 years, leaving because of that. I'm not in favor.

I think it is a matter of time, we've waited long enough for a tool that met our requirements. It's here now, it's been heavily discussed and translators are supported to use the tool. They're just not enforced.

Agree with "not enforced" and we never wanted to enforce people to use a tool, but just to offer a solution which fits to the needs without forbid the possibilitly to translate.
Once again, there's a lack in the collaborative spirit to forbid French Translators to use Crowdin and make translations behind closed doors.

@Sandra97
The process is not open (special private TT forum) for a simple reason: if we let anyone propose anything concerning a language, we have no way to make sure that the strings will make sense + the fact that the forum would be flooded with b...t.
The problem is NOT the tool. The problem is to find reliable TT coordinators that do the job, whatever the tool.

For example, I do not use crowdin. I prefer com_localise as I do not have to be online to prepare fr-FR packs. I propose beta packs to the French community (those concerned...) to test and feedback.
It goes much faster and I am usually ready before other TTs.
We do have a repo on github where anyone may propose a patch that we will or not take into account...

If that is closed doors, let it be.

I don't accept that the closed translation process is a positive quality issue. As an open source project and open source advocates it goes against everything we should believe jn.

That's the first time I hear about crowdin .com for Joomla translation... There is no info in Translation forum at forums.joomla.org (that you will see visiting this forum, pinned or otherwise) or in https://community.joomla.org/translations.html.

First time I had to create PL translation (that was for J3.5) I created my OWN tool for that and I used it until now.
I don't think that tool will change anything.
PL team was one man (https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html#pl-pl - there are many ppl but it isn't up to date, even coordinator is one person now) until recently (I joined after 3.5.1). Until then I posted my translation at polish forum (joomla.pl)). Up to this point only coordinator was preparing translations. My first translation was for my bussiness intranet web page. I thought that if there is no 'current' translation why not to share it with others.
So no, tools will not change anything, they might help but without contributors they will just 'be'.

Going back to crowdin.com, just checked language files contents in demo project. It Joomla language files looks like this in demo it will pass to use this. (Much prefer 'simple' Transifex files).

ps. about my OWN tool (which isn't written in open source language but in one that I prefer...) which I didn't even share it with my own coordinator... It allows me to find differences within two last editions of en-GB language packs (official and files downloaded from github at language freeze) and add/mark keys that needs to be translated. Its something like diff, but more ;)
This way I can prepare PL files in 1-2 days after language freeze. Then I send it to my coordinator with list of modified/added keys for review, and then he uploads it to joomlacode.
@brianteeman if you think that this is against open source then I quit.

Not enforcing tools, but suggesting.
By the way, an open workflow (or tool or whatever) would allow people to contribute.
In the actual way, all the work is done by 1 or 2 people that, obviously do a very good job, but it's not fair. We should welcome contributors.

@yild it's not about the tool technology. Each Translation Team now uses a different workflow or a custom solution (like yours one). Some of them use com_localise.

To be clear the main issue Luca is trying to address is the languages that
have not been updated for up to three years.

yes, @brianteeman you're right.
I would like to know why such a large number of language packs are not up to date.
Is there a tool issue? Lack of people? Coordinator disappeared?

How each team is working IMO isn't a big deal, but I think the default going forward should be whatever the established standard is right now (so Crowdin) and teams choosing to deviate from it should have a good explanation why. Maybe they have more efficient tools or workflows and that's fine by me, but it should be clear why the choice was made and it shouldn't preclude potential new contributors from joining in.

I get there are established teams and workflows now. Nobody is trying to discourage those already doing the work from continuing to do so or keep using the tools/systems they're comfortable with. We want to make it easier for folks to jump in and help with teams beyond trying to locate a coordinator on a site and hoping they're receptive to you reaching out if they're even responsive at all. I don't have answers for that, which is why all my translation workflows defer to individuals who do have knowledge in that area and could help figure things out.

The main issue should be simpel to address. Each TT agreed to the term of
'Language packs shall be kept up to date with the current releases of Joomla'
when they joined.
If that or any of the other 18-20 defined terms they accepted isn´t full
filled, the policy said the listings would be removed.
That older policy is no longer in the side menu since the community site
update, but was until the recent site update.

A softer approach than deleting from site listings and official
distribution, could be that of still keeping the unmaintained language in
crowdin for others to pick up and contribute to and to add to the
distribution when up to date again. This to make sure already done work
could be recycled so new comers wouldn´t have to start from scratch.

Optimally the whole localisation and translation proces should be as open
and dynamic as possible in order to have the teams provide ongoing feedback
of potential internationalisation issues discovered when maintaining a
language, so that issues can be address during a staging phase, rather than
in a last week of freeze.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Brian Teeman notifications@github.com
wrote:

To be clear the main issue Luca is trying to address is the languages that
have not been updated for up to three years.

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@jeckodevelopment - @infograf768 touched on one of the reasons for partial translation earlier in this thread. Some translators use the backend in en-GB but need the front end in their own or various other languages for their visitors. So they just translate the part that is important to them. It has been the same with extensions too.

Thank you @ot2sen and @mbabker
I don't like the hard approach in this case, to be honest.
I don't want to see deletions in language packs. Translators gave a very high effort to create such a big number of language packs that no one wants to destroy their work.
I like the softer approach. In fact I want to understand why a language pack is no more up to date. And I like your proposal: if a TT is dead we can move to Crowdin the language pack and start receiving contrbutions from new translators.

@Hils I can understand this point. But Language Packs should be complete: frontend + backend.
A closed process in this case doesn't allow other people to translate what people who is in charge for the LP did not want to translate.

Agree @jeckodevelopment - I have always believed in crowd sourcing translations rather than relying on one or two people per language who might or might not be right or wrong. Crowdin (sounds like crowd sourcing!), Transifex or one of the many more that I know @ot2sen has tried out, are far more open and available to all, so translations can be constantly 'honed' and remembered by the software using Translation Memory. Modern translation software will even offer 'suggestions' for translators which makes it far faster especially if the Translation Memory is made up of say Joomla specific language.

someone is not happy with a non updated language pack?
simple : put the old pack indeed on crowdin, find a new language coordinator who will be responsible for that language and let this person contact the TT coordinaion to be allowed to upload the pack on joomlacode in the special rep we have there.
any other debate is useless.

Perhaps you should all have a look at the crowdin project. You'd discover that more than half of the languages that are mentioned not to be up to date are present on crowdin, some of them ready to be updated with the new release...
Just in case this is where to find it: https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms

Reason why a language pack is not updated is in most cases when a language coordinator is not responding anymore. Whenever there is someone to take over it is processed.
btw. the info on the article in community about the number of translators per team, does not reflect the truth. Looking at the activity on crowdin you can see many more are involved. Also keep in mind that a number of languages have their own community including their own communication channels.

@infograf768 that's what I want to know. If a language pack is abandoned, we need to find new people to work at it.

Yes, @marijkestuivenberg each team has its own communication channels and methods. And I agree when you say that the most common case is that the language coordinator disappear.

So, can we start unblocking this situation and get in touch with out-of-date LP coordinators?

@jeckodevelopment

So, can we start unblocking this situation and get in touch with out-of-date LP coordinators?

What do you think the TT Coordination is doing? Sending mails, posting Topics on the forum as I said earlier.
All existing Translation Teams coordinators credentials are available to all https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html

Do you volunteer to also contact them? Please do.
No reply? Find a new volunteer...

I see that Greek lang is outdated but there is a 3.6.0 package submitted from a translator: http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=928912
So maybe what @brianteeman mentioned above for opening up the process (honestly I am not aware of the process), really make sense?

@dgt41
You should have looked further
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=711&t=928908

The guy never contacted the Coordination...

With an open process there would have been no need - he could have just
submitted his changes as easily as he posted them on the forum

On 2 August 2016 at 08:23, infograf768 notifications@github.com wrote:

@dgt41 https://github.com/dgt41
You should have looked further
http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=711&t=928908

The guy never contacted the Coordination...

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@infograf768

We do have a repo on github where anyone may propose a patch that we will or not take into account...

Where?

OffTopic question: If someone wants to reply:
crowdin.com seems to be a paid service, not a free one. Who pays at the moment for https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms ?

The process of translation of the core language files of Joomla is not closed or secret, it's only reserved and who wishes to participate is welcome. Similarly to other departments of the Joomla project, which coordinate dialogue and work in private areas.
Obviously there are certain terms to accept and some small rules to follow for those who want to collaborate in the various translation teams. The information about who participates are public.
In the private forums are often indicated in advance the dates of future releases of Joomla with other details that we have always preferred to remain private so as not to create confusion in the community.
About the Translation Policy, it should be republished as soon as possible in Joomla.org site, we will commit to restore it and make it respected by Translation Teams.

@bertmert
https://crowdin.com/page/open-source-project-setup-request

Note that Crowdin has a real willingness to work WITH Joomla! and that they are very reactive (that was not the case with other services) and that our relations are excelentes.
Not a single $ is paid for, only time of volunteers.

IMHO we should also strengthen and formalize a partnership which would allow Joomla! AND Crowdin, to explain to the Community that this service is available FOR them. What doesn't mean they MUST use it if they prefer to work on another tool, but just that they will find an adapted COLLABORATIVE and OPEN t9n tool and more important, the help from other volunteers to work on it.
Agree or disagree, this communication is a total fail today and then even that it works when it is done the right way (see other translation projects).

Side note and even it is not the place for an internal fr vs. fr topic, I hope JM that when you're saying that YOUR process is open because you have a GitHub repo, this is just a joke.

For those interested the policy is at
https://community.joomla.org/25-translations/544-joomla-project-translation-and-localization-policy.html
and just not linked to a side menu currently it seems.

For the matter of openness, collaboration and transparency I would agree
with Brian and others. This is key to further strengthening the support of
joomla in any language.

Nothing of we originally considered to be best held private, is today
needed to be held private (neither was it in the past). The project is at a
stage where this information is made public for all in advance and that for
good use so that collaboration of marketing materials, imagery, landing
pages are done in time before releases. A very open and collaborative
process that has worked well when those in charge been proactive and
engaging with the language volunteers.
At this point we wouldn´t even need that policy. It over complicates the
basic thing of contributing where you can with what you have to share. Be
open, it is time :)

On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 12:35 PM, ste notifications@github.com wrote:

The process of translation of the core language files of Joomla is not
closed or secret, it's only reserved and who wishes to participate is
welcome. Similarly to other departments of the Joomla project, which
coordinate dialogue and work in private areas.
Obviously there are certain terms to accept and some small rules to follow
for those who want to collaborate in the various translation teams. The
information about who participates are public.
In the private forums are often indicated in advance the dates of future
releases of Joomla with other details that we have always preferred to
remain private so as not to create confusion in the community.
About the Translation Policy, it should be republished as soon as possible
in Joomla.org site, we will commit to restore it and make it respected by
Translation Teams.

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There should be an info about crowdin.com if you prefer this method of translation...
ATM there is nowhere to be found or its hidden and not easily accessible.

@yild
This is part of the problem but + ?

Nothing of we originally considered to be best held private, is today needed to be held private (neither was it in the past).

Just for reference, at least when I was doing things, there have been times the translation teams were given a date time range for when a release might be pushed out including security fixes, a forewarning that generally doesn't happen in a public forum short of there being an "oh s**t!" reactionary move. So there is occasionally the need for "private" communication but it's really more of an exception than the rule.

To be clear the main issue Luca is trying to address is the languages that
have not been updated for up to three years.

Let's get the facts straight. There are only 2 language packages that are not updated up to three years.
Albanian and Hebrew are on 3.1.1. The good news is that currently there is work done on the Hebrew package at crowdin. So hopefully soon there will be an updated version.

Two more are of concern, both on 3.2: Vietnamese and Belarussian. Vietnamese is present on crowdin, but there is no activity seen there.

7 language packages are on 3.3, the rest is on 3.4 and 3.5. Most are on crowdin, and a good number of them are updated there and good progress can be seen.

@yild I think you should contact your language coordinator about that, he should been informed. PL is also present on crowdin but no Proofreader assigned. The 2 of you should discuss what is the best way for you to maintain the language packages and have as much input from the Polish community (which is very vibrant I think) as possible. Just let the coordination know and it will be taken care of.

Technically Crowdin is still in an evaluation state for the CMS as written on https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms.
It turned out to work very well so far and more and more languages have been added. Not all of them are active as some languages also were just initially set up when moved from the respective (abandoned) Transifex project. You can see them here: https://crowdin.com/projects/Joomla
Also other projects were started successfully on the same (free open source) account.
To make it our "official" translation tool, the next steps should be a decision by PLT (if needed) and most importantely it needs to be communicated and the related scripts (syncing with GitHub and triggering package generation) need to be moved from my private server to an official Joomla property. That's likely a job for PLT to do. Maybe @jeckodevelopment can help with that.
The script to sync the files is currently here: https://gist.github.com/Bakual/7a750e4f3f89c72bfd3c
I've also written a plugin which lets you translate Joomla within Joomla itself by clicking the strings where they appear: https://github.com/Bakual/crowdinachug. That one needs to be updated, tested and communicated as well.

So the part of translating Joomla CMS would be very open using Crowdin. But obviously only for the languages that choose to use this service.
Some teams still prefer to use com_localise (https://github.com/joomla-projects/com_localise) or other tools. I don't think there is an issue with that as long as they deliver up-to-date and quality packages (like eg french does).

Personally I would move the outdated languages packs (eg more than 2 minor versions behind) to Crowdin and look for a new "proofreader"/coordinator to take care of that language. However I don't know how you can find such a person.

The next step in the process of creating a package is to make it available. Currently that is up to the language team coordinator. He has an account on the dreaded JoomlaCode where he is allowed to upload the final package. A cron job then periodically reads the released packages and creates an XML file with the list of available languages. That XML is read by the language installer in the Joomla CMS.
Now JC is bound to be deleted as it is a highly buggy and unsupported software. There should be a new download site but I don't know the current state of that. PLT should know more about that.
In a perfect world, that download portal could read the Crowdin API and automatically download the latest packages from there. But I guess it will not be reliable enough (eg you can't flag packages as "released" in Crowdin) and still needs manual processing to make sure the package works. So that part of the process likely will still need to be "private" as you can't allow anyone to upload packages to the download place. You need a few trusted people (eg the language coordinators) to do that or it will become a horrible mess ?
However if the language is hosted on Crowdin it is much easier to take over the work and release a language pack if the coordinator is gone missing. And we can also help much easier with issues.

+100

However I don't know how you can find such a person.

The problem right now is that community members don't even know one is
needed

On 2 August 2016 at 13:20, Thomas Hunziker notifications@github.com wrote:

Technically Crowdin is still in an evaluation state for the CMS as written
on https://crowdin.com/project/joomla-cms.
It turned out to work very well so far and more and more languages have
been added. Not all of them are active as some languages also were just
initially set up when moved from the respective (abandoned) Transifex
project. You can see them here: https://crowdin.com/projects/Joomla
Also other projects were started successfully on the same (free open
source) account.
To make it our "official" translation tool, the next steps should be a
decision by PLT (if needed) and most importantely it needs to be
communicated and the related scripts (syncing with GitHub and triggering
package generation) need to be moved from my private server to an official
Joomla property. That's likely a job for PLT to do. Maybe
@jeckodevelopment https://github.com/jeckodevelopment can help with
that.
The script to sync the files is currently here:
https://gist.github.com/Bakual/7a750e4f3f89c72bfd3c
I've also written a plugin which lets you translate Joomla within Joomla
itself by clicking the strings where they appear:
https://github.com/Bakual/crowdinachug. That one needs to be updated,
tested and communicated as well.

So the part of translating Joomla CMS would be very open using Crowdin.
But obviously only for the languages that choose to use this service.
Some teams still prefer to use com_localise (
https://github.com/joomla-projects/com_localise) or other tools. I don't
think there is an issue with that as long as they deliver up-to-date and
quality packages (like eg french does).

Personally I would move the outdated languages packs (eg more than 2 minor
versions behind) to Crowdin and look for a new "proofreader"/coordinator to
take care of that language. However I don't know how you can find such a
person.

The next step in the process of creating a package is to make it
available. Currently that is up to the language team coordinator. He has an
account on the dreaded JoomlaCode where he is allowed to upload the final
package. A cron job then periodically reads the released packages and
creates an XML file with the list of available languages. That XML is read
by the language installer in the Joomla CMS.
Now JC is bound to be deleted as it is a highly buggy and unsupported
software. There should be a new download site but I don't know the current
state of that. PLT should know more about that.
In a perfect world, that download portal could read the Crowdin API and
automatically download the latest packages from there. But I guess it will
not be reliable enough (eg you can't flag packages as "released" in
Crowdin) and still needs manual processing to make sure the package works.
So that part of the process likely will still need to be "private" as you
can't allow anyone to upload packages to the download place. You need a few
trusted people (eg the language coordinators) to do that or it will become
a horrible mess ?
However if the language is hosted on Crowdin it is much easier to take
over the work and release a language pack if the coordinator is gone
missing. And we can also help much easier with issues.

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the related scripts (syncing with GitHub and triggering package generation) need to be moved from my private server to an official Joomla property

You do realize we have our Jenkins CI server which is exactly the point of these types of automated tasks? If you ever want it moved, that's where it'll go, and it'd be pretty easy to tack it on as an added step to the already existing job running against every push to staging.

@brianteeman
IMHO, we need more than one person, a structured Team with 2 branches (Core lg packs that have specific needs + Other topics (doc, marketing, official ext and sites...) with at least 2 leads per branch (1 dev liaison for the tech part and 1 "Translators coordinator" for the "human" part (sorry, if it's not the right word to use here)).

Thank you @Bakual , PLT already talked about the language tools, but no decisions yet.
I agree with you and also with @MATsxm , some parts of the process need to be done by trusted people like Language Coordinators, in fact no one wants to remove them.

+1 on that. The part I think we all want to make easier or more open is
actual translating. You still need the existing process to ensure packages
are published (hopefully with a final QA check along the way). Removing
that would be like me letting every translator publish directly to the live
issue tracker server without me running the synchronization tasks.

On Tuesday, August 2, 2016, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com wrote:

Thank you @Bakual https://github.com/Bakual , PLT already talked about
the language tools, but no decisions yet.
I agree with you and also with @MATsxm https://github.com/MATsxm , some
parts of the process need to be done by trusted people like Language
Coordinators, in fact no one wants to remove them.

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Completely agree @mbabker
We can open the translation process, to involve more people. But we need Proofread, Review and Packing by Translation Coordinators.

You do realize we have our Jenkins CI server which is exactly the point of these types of automated tasks? If you ever want it moved, that's where it'll go, and it'd be pretty easy to tack it on as an added step to the already existing job running against every push to staging.

@mbabker I was thinking about this server, yes. But I doubt I'm the person who should modify those jobs there, hence the nudge to PLT ?

I'll let you know when they finally call me ?

@mbabker you're the Jenkins CI master :P

@mbabker I see, still the same then. I will be away the next few days but I'm coming back to you to get that done ?

@jeckodevelopment

We can open the translation process, to involve more people. But we need Proofread, Review and Packing by Translation Coordinators.

Then you have to be PROactive and communicate in a better way.

Just one example
We have just opened a dedicated Twitter Channel on the model of what is done elsewhere and what WORKS elsewhere (Twitter, many other l10n platforms and projects).
https://twitter.com/JoomlaL10nC
(We didn't have time already to promote it, believe me, I have few other things to do).
Is this my job?
TBH, I don't think so but what?
Do I have to wait for the job to be done?

Each time there's a new string to translate on ANY Joomla! Project we post about it and even with the actual few number of followers (no promotion at this point) that WORKS! already and have the strings started to be translated 1/2 hour after that.

In this ammount of translators, we can find proofreaders to trust in, this is not a big deal except for orphan languages but even for those, believe me, the solutions DO exist...
Even if they change for most of them every 6 or 8 months (yes, It's a tiring job).
I don't see this as a problem and there are solutions.

Be open and attractive and motvate the person who are behind then half the job will be done.
Why I'm still here, just because I'm having FUN with those I work with!

Just one example, because MIG got intensively in contact with the Hebrew Translation coordinator, and helped him get the package up to date. it is ready to be released whenever 3.6.1 comes out.
@MATsxm it takes a lot more then just a fart on twitter to get things done and NO we don't aim at translators that work with us for a few weeks or months, but work on dedicated translators that understand how Joomla works, and how translations can be done in the best way.
If unnoticed, take a look at the packages that are updated in less then 24 hours after a release!
Now tell me the Translation Coordination Team doesn't do their job!

Hmmm, a lot of t...g around it seems. If what is desired is to push out the few people taking care of TTs, this is very successful...

@brianteeman

With an open process there would have been no need - he could have just submitted his changes as easily as he posted them on the forum

Good luck! Nicolas has dropped indeed updating the Greek Language but afaik there no other responsible coordinator for Greek. So, even if someone had posted proposals on crowdin, nothing would have been done to check and produce the packs.

@bertmert
Here is the Github repo:
https://github.com/infograf768/fr-FR-3.x
You will see that there are few PRs as there are few needs.
I work on com_localise and gather .diff sent to me usually by Nicolas, test them locally (com_localise is great for that) then update the repo.

@MATsxm and @Sandra97 , generally speaking @ the Thevenet family
As far as I know, you never participated to the french joomla.fr community to produce or simply help at producing the core language packs and the custom distros. If you had you would have known that there were important public debates along the years on forum.joomla.fr concerning the use of terms and various other matters.

FYI: The french community did the job according to the Policy, for more then 10 years now, and nobody complained. FYI, as we followed strictly the deadlines, we never needed as much as some others to wait for more volunteers to help. And certainly not to propose endless patches to add or take off a period as some do elsewhere.

@ all, again:
The reason why we had, since Mambo times, a private forum, has never been to keep things secret! It was for simple convenience.

Something some still don't understand and should always been remembered:
MOST TTs do NOT code. Most never did/do CVS, SVN or Github.

Imagine if the access had been public all the posts we would have got for any petty things not concerning all TTs.

The forum has been created to formalize the creation and follow-up of the Translation Teams.
There have been debated a LOT of stuff that did not always need to be public, including the Translation Policy.
The Translation Policy asked for Responsible TT coordinators producing the packs and signing a special agreement. The TT coordination keeps these agreements as, in many cases, the Policy is very important (Copyrights, what should or not be in the packs AND the distros produced by these language communities, badges on communities site, etc.)

For your information, some historical members of PLT, some years ago, wanted to give up all the work we did to get these Teams producing in time the packs through the organization we had developed along the years. Some wanted to force all languages to be on SVN or else and let anybody propose stuff, basically as coders would propose patches. No responsible person per language. This was fought heavily as we had the experience of this failure when no responsible body was put in place. Some so-called Transifex projects proposed by individuals to the Coordination never gave any pack...

On this private forum was proposed the first code which made possible the cron job that let joomla users install languages packs directly from Joomla.
There we help each other understand the arcanes of some weird strings.
There we take care of newcomers, although a lot of job is done totally privately (Yep!) by helping the people by personal chat to not bother all.
There we get feedback on obviously wrong (Typos) or missing strings (You know, some TTs check the use of the strings and not only translate them...)
There we defined how to add to the packs the specific files that were needed for TinyMCE. and where we gather today the installation ini files as well as the new tinyMCE lang files.
These are produced by responsible coordinators, not by anyone deciding suddenly to collaborate for a week with a few phrases.
There was created the 2.5 multingual site offered to all as demo.

Is this mean of communication less important today than it was in the past? For sure. But it is still very useful.

The TT Coordination is everyday doing stuff, not talking much about it.

Crowdin is not too bad indeed (specially compared to Transifex) although the Teams copyright can't be kept in the ini headers and some specific supplementary strings can't be added.
I have no issue with Teams wanting to use it.

Conclusion: whatever the way, what is needed are reliable TTs whatever the tools, and nothing should be released automatically (Garbage in, Garbage out).

If anybody wants to help accomplish that, I am told by the Coordination (Mig, Stella and Marijke) that they are welcome and just need to contact them.

@Bakual if we go to into technicalities... when base en-GB at crowdin is updated - at language freeze? at any change in site/admin 'language' folder?
Is there any info that base en-GB strings have changed and other languages strings have be reviewed?

@marijkestuivenberg Yes, I will contact my coordinator, I think he doesn't know about crowdin. I did a brief check and there are already ppl at crowdin that are willing to contribute to PL translation but their work is unused as coordinator and official language 'team' don't use this tool. So why not to put their work to good use. But Im afraid that my coordinator is hard lined, and there are issues that I raised above that may not work as expected (i.e. make language pack available few days after language freeze).

when base en-GB at crowdin is updated - at language freeze? at any change in site/admin 'language' folder?

@yild Each night around midnight (MEST). It's a simple cronjob which runs my syncing script.

Is there any info that base en-GB strings have changed and other languages strings have be reviewed?

I think you can tell Crowdin that it sends you a notification if any source (en-GB) strings have changed.

Also in the Project Global settings

yes, i can confirm all about notifications. In fact I received email when new strings were added and/or updated.

@yild You're coordinator should be aware as there is an exhausting thread on the (private) TT forum when we started evaluating crowdin. I'm all for to put the work of volunteers that contributed at crowdin to good use, so my answer to your coordinator would be, it can't hurt to check the tool out. The worst thing that can happen is that you like it and start working with it.
I can name a lot of pro's beside the ease of updating and collaborating. :)

You can subscribe for updates, but further more there is an activity tab that shows exactly what changed, who suggested, voted, approved or disapproved a translation. There is a a discussion tab to discuss pro's and cons of a translation. It's all clear and easy to find. Usually the language coordinator is the only proofreader, meaning being able to approve translations. Only approved translations will go into the package.
I'm happy to help out in a chat if needed, you can find me on Glip.

It may not be the best topic for an 'issue', but I would like to ask how would be the best course of action if we would like to start language from scratch - remove current translations and upload already prepared files for 3.6.1?

I need to know this before I even start this 'crowdin' topic with my coordinator ;)

You can upload the existing translation. During upload you can choose for divers options

As a translator you're able to upload each file separate, the managers can upload complete folders. (you can see the managers in the project).
I checked and so far there is no Proofreader set for Polish. If you and your coordinator decide to use (or try) the tool, you should let us know who we can set to Proofreader for the language in order to be able to approve translations.

@yild You can just contact me if you want to upload your whole existing translation pack. Using my little script I can upload all files in one go automated. I can also set it so it's already flagged as approved.

@marijkestuivenberg , @Bakual thanks, already contacted my coordinator and waiting for his response for this 'migration' but it may take a while.

Already started manual uploads but it is tedious, don't know if mass approval can be done for last suggestion or by translator (uploader) name or for batch like 'You uploaded 480 translations'.

I will contact you @Bakual if further assistance will be needed, thanks ;)

@infograf768 @marijkestuivenberg
Just a note (there would be so much to say about bad faith and false allegations that you dare claimed) I really don't think I have lessons to receive here, and for all the l10n projects I work for regarding QA/QC when it takes a whole day to check, correct and properly integrate the Persian t9n (just one on many others) of the landing page. Believe me, it would have been easier playing with an integration script.
Working quickly, doesn't imply bad work. It is possible to work better, faster while involving all those who want to be.
To the wise...

@yild
I sent a PM to zwiastun (Polish TT coordinator http://forum.joomla.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2152 ) asking him to contact you urgently, including concerning the installation ini file you posted a patch for on gihub. (FI, Yild is not in the private TT forum, only zwiastun is)

@MATsxm
Everybody is happy with the work you do for docs and landing pages.
As I said, the TT coordination has been doing that kind of work (and much more) since the Mambo times and we do know the time and efforts it takes.
We just don't spend our free time bashing on other people's work.

To maintainers, I suggest you close this issue now as it has nothing to do with core code. There are proper channels for such discussion.

@infograf768 I opened this "issue" to figure out why some LPs are out of date. I don't want to complain with your work. You're a kind of institution.
This discussion has been useful to better understand how things work and to see which are the issues with the current process.
My suggestion, as said before, is to move out of date packages to an open tool (read Crowdin) where new people can help with translation.
Active LPs and TTs can continue with their excellent work, but they can also consider the new possibility provided by Crowdin, involving new people to help with the translation. TT Coordination could consider this.

@jeckodevelopment
It has been considered... As @marijkestuivenberg explained above, all the pros and cons have been debated in our forum and all TTs are aware of crowdin. Some are using it, others not.
Until now, and as the Policy states, it's their choice. They are just asked to deliver.

If it is decided by PLT (the TT Coordination is a workgroup depending from PLT) to enforce the use of that tool, then we will see what happens.

As for the "really" out of date language packs (Albanian for example), @Bakual can add it, if not already done, on crowdin. Remains the main issue: find someone to look after it.

I am a bit tired of repeating myself and will now stop watching this Topic.

Thanks for opening the issue Luca. :)
It has been a valuable discussion on the topic of a need for an improved
workflow and proces and has given plenty of great feedback from many highly
experienced people.
This is important considering we are dealing with the single most important
feature of Joomla - its ability to be available in any language. Most been
able to focus at the topic and not the people speaking.

There are a couple of take away points that I only realised this evening
after having given the topic an extra thought during the day, you can call
them new issues brought to the surface from this topic.

1. First of all we all agree it is great to see 70 languages listed in the
   'Install language' option. Those 23 that are lower than J3.5 are the legit
   reason for this issue to be opened in the first place.
   As 3.5 is from 21 march and now hasn´t had an update for 4½ month at
   minimum, it would make sense to do an extended effort to bring those to
   3.6. This thread provided some good ideas to help that happen. (see 3. for
   a new idea)

2. I learned here that some packages aren´t actually full packages. I
   didn´t know that. For years it was required to have a complete work done
   before being allowed to get published. When this changed I do not know.
   This is not necessarily a problem. People just need to know that some
   packages aren´t complete works.
   The list at
   https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html do
   have some special notes for more of the languages. But users installing
   from within joomla will not see these notes
   Users may well, like me, think the packages listed are only missing a few
   strings. Again, not a problem by default. The notes could probably be added
   to the install message or replace that generic hover message you get saying
   the package doesn´t match current release.

3. To address 1 and 2, I would suggest to look at the presentation in the
   backend.
   a) If non-complete packages are provided, let users know this in the label
   b) For the non-complete and those lower than 3.5? version, add them to
   crowdin and connect these languages with the 'Install language' list. This
   to allow a (example) [85% complete] with a label of suggesting to help
   complete it, and linked to the language at crowdin or a welcoming page
   introducing them how to contribute a volunteer effort for these missing 15%
   (various extensions are doing this for other crowdsources translation
   efforts - and it works well by making users clear there is something they
   can do for exactly the thing they do need)

Ole

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Luca Marzo notifications@github.com
wrote:

@infograf768 https://github.com/infograf768 I opened this "issue" to
figure out why some LPs are out of date. I don't want to complain with your
work. You're a kind of institution.
This discussion has been useful to better understand how things work and
to see which are the issues with the current process.
My suggestion, as said before, is to move out of date packages to an open
tool (read Crowdin) where new people can help with translation.
Active LPs and TTs can continue with their excellent work, but they can
also consider the new possibility provided by Crowdin, involving new people
to help with the translation. TT Coordination could consider this.

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I learned here that some packages aren´t actually full packages. I didn´t know that.
For years it was required to have a complete work done before being allowed to get published.

Plain wrong...

Which proves that some people prompt to criticize should know better... Specially a former member of the TT Coordination.
This has been known for years. So much that it is even explained in docs...
In 1.5 TTs could provide one site and one admin .zip (and drop the admin if they could not handle it) and we followed the policy in 1.6 onward by explaining that the packs had to contain at least some admin files used in frontend. Otherwise there are many languages that we would not have got.
See:
https://docs.joomla.org/J3.x:Making_a_Language_Pack_for_Joomla#The_Site-only_pack

Yes, you are right. My memory played tricks on me from how we accepted
listings to indicate _site, _admin, _full to be added to the repository
where people manually downloaded packages.

The 'I didn´t know' was correct though. But was based in what I mistakenly
believed to be full packages included in the 'Install Language' feature,
when this was added to core. I really had no idea that partly done work was
accepted to be listed there. As a former Core Translation Coordinator and
former TT Coordination team member, it just felt logic the packages would
be complete when nothing else indicated. I clearly have misunderstood this.

Like the other people giving feedback here, neither of us are actually
criticizing the fine volunteer effort done by TTC or local Translation
Coordinators and their teams.
It is important to allow the community and fellow volunteers to be able to
suggest improvements and it is expected that the TTC are open towards ideas
and input. Team work beyond the badges you may say :)

Back to the technical and presentational issue again then.
Could it be that users installing a language pack from within joomla, do
have the same expectation of getting a full package, when nothing is
mentioned that it is only a site pack.
Wouldn´t it be useful to indicate with a special icon and label that the
notes available at community site list, have extra valuable information
about a package the user is about to install?

Secondly, wouldn´t it be a nice feature to have an indicator whether a
package is 100% or 85%, and to present an entry point for volunteers to
join right in for exactly what they need?

Ole

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 8:22 AM, infograf768 notifications@github.com
wrote:

I learned here that some packages aren´t actually full packages. I didn´t
know that.
For years it was required to have a complete work done before being
allowed to get published.

Plain wrong...

Which proves that some people prompt to criticize should know better...
Specially a former member of the TT Coordination.
This has been known for years. So much that it is even explained in
docs...
In 1.5 TTs could provide one site and one admin .zip (and drop the admin
if they could not handle it) and we followed the policy in 1.6 onward by
explaining that the packs had to contain at least some admin files used in
frontend. Otherwise there are many languages that we would not have got.
See:

https://docs.joomla.org/J3.x:Making_a_Language_Pack_for_Joomla#The_Site-only_pack

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Hi guys, I have begun to create some hindi language content on my joomla site. I'd be happy to help with translating english language strings to hindi, but I don't know how to help and I am not a programmer. If someone wants to guide me through the process, I'll be happy to be of service. By the way, keep up the good work. Joomla rocks. Cheers

@talet Please have a look at this page https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html. There are helpful links on it.
Also if you need assistance feel free to contact Mig (http://forum.joomla.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=224484).

@talet

Regarding the Core translations, thank you to check either:

https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html#hi-in
or: https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/translations-working-group
or ask Mig or Marijke on the Forum: http://forum.joomla.org/

We are also looking for translators on many side Joomla! projects related to Marketing, Documentation, Official extensions etc.
see:
https://docs.joomla.org/JDOC:Documentation_Translators
https://crowdin.com/projects/Joomla

This could be a good starting point for joining and help the Joomla! Community.
Thanks

@Bakual

Oooops, sorry for the echo... was fighting with my issue-tracker ?

Thanks Marc and Thomas,

I looked at these URLs, and went to Crowdin to see how I could help. But I felt uncomfortable and out of place making translation suggestions, as I didn’t know what I am supposed to be translating. Eg., I don’t think I can sensibly translate a technical string like hi-IN.com_admin.ini into Hindi, other than to write it in devnagri script like so: हि-इन.कॉम_एडमिन.इनी

I was under the impression that strings I was expected to translate would be like “Help” = मदद, “Contacts” = संपर्क, but since I don’t know what I am expected to do here, perhaps it is best I step away. I won’t also have the time to translate Marketing, Documentation, Official extensions manuals etc. into Hindi, as all the work I do on my site (60hrs pw) is already as an unpaid volunteer.

Sorry to have lifted your hopes. All the best

From: Marc-Antoine Thevenet [mailto:notifications@github.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:55 PM
To: joomla/joomla-cms joomla-cms@noreply.github.com
Cc: talet ttstories@gmail.com; Mention mention@noreply.github.com
Subject: Re: [joomla/joomla-cms] [Joomla 3.6] Out of date language packs (#11390)

@talet https://github.com/talet

Regarding the Core translations, thank you to check either:

https://community.joomla.org/translations/joomla-3-translations.html#hi-in
or: https://volunteers.joomla.org/working-groups/translations-working-group
or ask Mig or Marijke on the Forum: http://forum.joomla.org/

We are also looking for translators on many side Joomla! projects related to Marketing, Documentation, Official extensions etc.
see:
https://docs.joomla.org/JDOC:Documentation_Translators
https://crowdin.com/projects/Joomla

This could be a good starting point for joining and help the Joomla! Community.
Thanks

This comment was created with the J!Tracker Application https://github.com/joomla/jissues at issues.joomla.org/joomla-cms/11390 https://issues.joomla.org/tracker/joomla-cms/11390 .

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According PLT meeting report, i'm closing this issue.
https://volunteers.joomla.org/leadership/production-leadership-team/reports/316-plt-meeting-august-24-2016

PLT doesn’t want to enforce the use of any tools for active languages, but all the abandoned/out of date language packs will be moved to Crowdin.com in order to welcome new contributors and look for new Translation Team coordinator for each abandoned language.

Great decision!