[#27758] - [4.0] [Atum] Atum's big problem.
- Closed
- 26 Feb 2020
- Medium
- Build: 4.0-dev
- # 27758
Dear developers, as an active professional Joomla developer, I can't remain calm about the ugliness of the Atum admin template design of Joomla 4. The Isis Joomla 3 admin template was great, and I started to understand it when I started comparing It with the Atum template. Isis is not ideal, but when compared to Atum it is superior by an order of magnitude. I agree that Atum uses new, latest technologies. But this is not enough. I will not be able to recommend Joomla 4 to my clients, Museum employees, schools, teachers, and sellers, because I will be ashamed to teach them how to manage Atum. If Joomla 4 is the best, but the admin template is bad, then the CMS is not needed by anyone. It will not be used. I criticize Atum in Joomla 4, and I insist that people will continue to use joomla 3. But due to the fact that Joomla 3 libraries are outdated, Joomla will lose its superiority.
Atum uses the FLAT design, this does not mean that the Flat design is bad. Design is an approach to style. But Atum's design is an inverted style.
Let's remember the fate of Windows 8, Dear Joomla developers, designers and coders. I ask you to support me and not repeat the fate of Windows 8. Flat-the idea is good, but the poor implementation of the design showed what became of Windows 8.
I will describe the Atum problems in the list. To reflect the fullness of the rationale, I need to describe examples of sites, people's reactions. I guess my description won't be short.
I'll start with praise, the new Atum template uses new technologies and it's great. But I will only list the shortcomings of my understanding, which will not lead to solving problems, but only to an accurate description of the problems that will need to be solved.
Let me remind you that the design should be not only beautiful but also convenient for fast and productive work. The best solution would be to migrate Isis to Joomla 4, or create a new template in the Isis style. I also support a side menu with sections. There are no complaints about the side menu with sections. There is also an opinion that if the interface should be associative and similar to other interfaces. In cinema, when they make a film about fiction and films about the future, there is a rule: "Reality can not be made too disconnected from reality, it must be the same items as in the present, only modified and improved."Because people will not understand anything at all.
I will list from big problems to smaller ones.
I. for example, open the article editor.
1.There's a problem with tabs. Tab color and fill: Material, Images/links, displays, parameters ... They have a color inversion of the opposite color in relation to the overall style of the site. This is wrong. The colors must be the same as the main text: black (blue) letters on light tabs. Suppose a blogger writes a blog. The blogger is completely immersed in his text. He writes his own text for 30 minutes every day. Every time he finishes writing text, he defocuses attention from the text and instead of seeing the SAVE button, he sees bright blue tabs that contrast across the entire site. Tabs are NOT the main thing, on the material editor page, the main thing is the SAVE button. Given example. MS Word program. It has a light panel with light buttons on the panel, only the button in the corner save. Here's a look at each window in Windows 10 (XP...) there is a main CLOSE button. This button is located in the very corner of the window. It is important that the button is in the corner. The corner is the very edge of the window. Even if you have a broken mouse and you can hardly get the mouse anywhere, you can always move it on the glass, wool, polishing the table, then moving the mouse diagonally up You will always get to the topmost point on the CLOSE button. So in MS Word, on the back of the close button, there is a SAVE button, the Save Button is also located in the upper-most corner, but on the back side. In an emergency, you can always click it with a broken mouse.
Now I will give an example with the Windows 10 taskbar. Many people have a very dark taskbar(black). Although the color of the taskbar is black, the taskbar is not located in the center of the screen. Thus, the taskbar is no longer a part of the screen, the taskbar is perceived as a monitor body, it is no longer paid attention to, and the Black taskbar does not draw attention to itself. And if users have a light theme, then this theme looks the same with the light themes of other programs. But the important thing is that you will not find anything worse than the light taskbar combined with the black style of everything else. the light panel will take all the attention away from black sites and black Windows. And imagine you are watching a movie on your computer, and under the player is a white taskbar. This is terrible. The Windows taskbar rule is to be black or to be white if everything else is white. And the tab rule in the content editor in Atum J4 should be the same color as the entire site, or the tabs should become part of the edge site with fixed positioning.
2.The SAVE buttons should always be highlighted more than anything else. When you scroll the editor down, the buttons become fixed to the top edge. I suggest making the entire top panel dark (blue). And when you scroll through the editor, so that the SAVE buttons move to the top blue panel. The Isis template is exactly what is perceived by the human subconscious, I did not understand this before, I think that many did not fully understand the harmony of Isis. But it is exactly what you need, as it is such as the location of the CLOSE button in the corner in window Windows 10.
3.Remove the gray background between the blocks, leaving only a shadow. The site is overloaded. This style may have looked great only on the designer's design in Photoshop, since the designer on the layout had very few elements for example, 1-2 white blocks for visual volume it looked with a gray background. But when there were a lot of such blocks, it became obvious that the gray background is an extra volume.
4.There are big buttons everywhere. These big buttons are great. But let's separate the main concept, the area to click and the design of the button. In order for the button to be pressed on the touch screen, it is enough to make large indents around the buttons, and the readable text on the buttons, so the buttons will look harmonious and will not be hypertrophied. In addition, you can make the out area larger than the button design itself.
5.Tabs should be tabs and not just a black square on the panel. Consider the programs MS Word, MS Edge, Google Chrome, the active tab always has the color of the entire panel. The active tab is not a black rectangle with text, it is a full-fledged tab like people make bookmarks in the most ordinary books. Imagine you are holding a book with colored pages, blue, yellow, pink, light green pages. Now imagine Your book has bookmarks: blue, yellow, pink, light green. Now imagine you open a light green tab, but with this a pink page opens, You open a yellow tab, and with it a blue page opens. How Do You Like It?" convenient? Rule: the Active tab must be either the color of the entire page or black but at the very edge of the screen. (similar to the taskbar).
Consider the Firefox tabs, in this browser the masonry is strictly rectangular, but even in this one, the Firefox tabs are located at the very edge of the screen, and the active tab also has the color of the entire panel. You need to apply the taskbar rule to tabs. the color and background should be the same as for all programs or be black, but from the very edge of the screen. In order not to attract attention to themselves. It is also bad for browser tabs to be light when black sites are present. It is bad to have light tabs when viewing movies in the browser in the full width of the window. Especially when there are dark scenes in the movies.
6.Tabs should be rounded, I agree that this does not correspond to the Flat style, but the Flat style should not be a hindrance to perception. The perception of the interface should remain the same as the design in a different style, the perception in the new style should be better or the same as in the old style. But if the perception gets worse. What the hell-this is a required style. What is the meaning of the new style if people with impaired vision do not perceive it. What is the meaning of the new style, if colorblind people will be confused.
--- I will scold the style of Flat.
8.Buttons, menus, and fields must be rounded. I'll explain why. I will explain with the example of clothing. There are 2 types of clothing: comfortable and fashionable. If a person needs to run on a sports field, then it should not be done in a tie. And if a person works in an office, then it will be hot in running shoes. These clothes are for convenience. And there are clothes for prestige, Women walk in heels, it visually lengthens the legs. Walking in this is inconvenient, but shoes with heels are not for running, they are for working men to distract from their Affairs and switch their attention to the girl. Other girls react negatively to this behavior.
Joomla 4 style should not distract, but focus on tasks, work, and blog.
A bit of history even before Windows XP and during the use of Windows XP, there was a trend to make buttons convex, three-dimensional, with shadows, with a mirror image on the button, with the effect of glass. This occurred because the speed of computer processors was able to handle the volumes of information to create three-dimensional buttons. in the days of Windows 95, computer processors are not designed for Windows with convex glass buttons. Remember such programs as Windows Media 7 and WinAMP, these programs have become popular due to the possibility of effect of glass buttons. There was a fashion to draw three-dimensional buttons for WinAMP. Years passed, and the extra ones went away. Years later, people were interested in the program's functions, not the glass buttons. This way the buttons are simplified. Gone are the glass buttons, then gone are the volume buttons, then gone are the shadows. We can remember How ISIS lost volume a couple of years ago. But the buttons were still buttons.
In Joomla 3 Isis, each button had a button reaction. For example, the Red button when hovering the mouse became dark red, the green button when hovering the mouse became dark green, the blue button when hovering the mouse became dark blue, this is an illusion of clicking. This is just as normal as a mouse in Windows has a shadow. The shadow of the mouse is always lower than the mouse. The mouse arrow is always pointing up. So please explain why in Joomla 4 Atum when you hover the mouse over the button, the white button suddenly turns green or red? In the design of the designer, I assume there was no such thing. And I'm sure that there is no rule in the FLAT style that when you hover the mouse over a white button, it changes color to red or green. This behavior is not stylistic at all.
. Once again, as far as the button is concerned, fields become simple over the years, but they must remain associative and intuitive.
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This way we can see how the style of buttons, fields, and menus is being simplified in joomla 4, but then please explain if we simplify buttons, fields, and menus in Joomla 4, then why do we load the perception with borders, gray backgrounds, and shadows. On the one hand, we adhere to the trend of the modern world to simplify the controls, but on the other hand, we overload the page itself with what we got rid of in the controls. In the design of the entire admin panel, we have saturated with shadows, gray background everything that should not have a volume, but at the same time removed the volume there that in its essence should have it.
I ask everyone to take into account the criticism and complaints, correct the style to prevent the fate of Windows 8.
joomla-cms-bot
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Words are cheap
Well, sorry, I wrote through Google Translator.
Understand, I wrote as the person who will teach to use Joomla 4 of the clients. Clients are people who manage the site only associatively. If the site is not intuitive for them, then the client IS not happy.
Do you have retired parents? will they easily understand the new Joomla 4 design ? For a level 8 programmer, the opinions of pensioners are not clear.
Do you have retired parents? will they easily understand the new Joomla 4 design
Yes I do - they are both nearly 90 - but that has nothing to do with it. They wouldnt know what to do with joomla 1,2,3 either
Yes I do - they are both nearly 90 - but that has nothing to do with it. They wouldnt know what to do with joomla 1,2,3 either
I want to say that we should not make a website for people like us. We must take into account cooks, carpenters, those who are 50 years old. My wife is 35 years old, she will find out where the Save button is and remember it. But the blue Tabs will interfere with her every time, no matter how quickly she gets used to it. Blue tabs take your attention. I'm already using the Cassiopeia template for joomla 3. I reworked this template for J3, using JQuery3 and BootStrap4, I use a plugin that removes jQuery 1 and BS 2. I believe this method will be a solution for many. But I am a designer. I work with clients all the time. I develop scripts and user interaction step by step. I am concerned about which template is used in J4.
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The designers of Windows 8 also believed that if a person remembers where the start button is located. That means he will be happy. But even knowing where the START button is, people were not satisfied with the new approach. The task of the new interface was to improve what was, or leave it as it is. But in fact, the new interface created problems. The failure was not long in coming. Windows 8 was used only by fans. I was among them. I imposed this OS on everyone. But years later, I started working with clients and writing scripts and instructions. I understood the interface errors.
Yes I do - they are both nearly 90 - but that has nothing to do with it. They wouldnt know what to do with joomla 1,2,3 either
It's bad that seniors can't manage Joomla. We must strive for this. If you are retired, disabled, color-blind, government employees with very cheap mice, a student with a cheap smartphone, and you are like a man in a situation where you have one hand in soap after washing dishes, and the other you set up a site on your smartphone on a hot summer day, when the sun is shining brightly, and on your smartphone you can hardly see what you can do quickly urgent things in CMS Joomla. Then the Joomla CMS will be the standard that the CMS should be.
@korenevskiy
I totally agree with you and your examples from Windows sound correct to me. I am excited with the new technologies of Joomla 4 but very disappointed with the administration template.
Joomla is now on a critical point with the new version of Joomla 4. If a good administration template is created, then most possibly, Joomla 4 will make the difference. There are many developers out there that want to "discover" something new and fresh in a CMS. But if the administration is bad, then I am afraid that Joomla will shrink more.
To make you feel better, as far as I know, Joomlashack is creating a second template for the Joomla 4 administration and the last time I checked it, it looked nice. It seems that the problem is so big that they decided to create another template. But I would feel much better knowing that the default administration template is the best choice.
Thank you for mentioning this problem.
@brianteeman
I did not expect an answer like yours from a person who is so close to Joomla. But korenevskiy still answered politely with explanations.
If the words are cheap, why didn't you write a few more words to explain your point of view. After all they are cheap.
To make you feel better, as far as I know, Joomlashack
Have you Seen what the Joomlashack template looks like ? can you show me?
To make you feel better, as far as I know, Joomlashack
If the Joomlashack Template is not divine, it is of no use. The new template should be better than the previous one, the previous one is Isis J3. The template from Template Joomlashack may be as good but different, but it should be higher by a head than ISIS. If this is not the case, the developers will use ISIS from J3. The developers will redo this template for J4. The fact is: "an Old friend is better than two new friends".
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The same is true with Atum. The new template should be higher by a head. If it's just different. It will be a failure. After all, the meaning of the new Joomla 4 is that it is better than the previous one. The new template should also be better than the previous one. It's just that he can't be else. Or need to save ISIS for J4 or do something higher.
Have you Seen what the Joomlashack template looks like ? can you show me?
Discussion:
https://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=803&t=970614
Development branch:
https://github.com/joomla-projects/j4adminui/
Joomlashack????
Joomlashack???? Joomlashack???? has nothing to do!!!
I believe it was the folks at Joomshaper doing the 27th iteration of the template, not Joomlashack (unless another template got proposed and I missed it).
Ok sorry, I don't remember where I saw the announcement about this alternative template.
Really? What is the point of this whole pissing match?
@korenevskiy
They explained to us in other discussions that Joomla is only for people with disabilities.
No ui.
No design.
There is no normal navigation.
I’ll leave this link here as a reminder of what Joomla could be.
https://magazine.joomla.org/item/3289-episode-iv-a-new-user-interface-for-the-joomla-backend
Alternative seems too will not be.
The Isis Joomla 3 admin template was great
Atum uses the FLAT design, this does not mean that the Flat design is bad.
Let's make clear that BOTH templates are based on flat design.
Here is some facts for J3 Isis template:
- First attempt for flat design: #7610
- Secont attempt for flat design: #11813
- Third attempt for flat design (the current version): #11789
For J4: Atum is not a brand new template, it was right from the beginning a redesign of Isis. Currently it's on the 4th major redesign.
What most people probably don't understand (probably because there not web developers) is that you can have the same design for bootstrap 2, or 3, or 4. It's not the css framework that drives a design, actually it's the other way around. Here's the proof, 2015 bootstrap version 2:
I took a screenshot. Ask yourself, do you like it?
- Problems that I can’t even explain. It could not make the designer, it could only do the programmer.
- Where are these colors from? Why is green so? Who is this designer?
- Inversion of color. My eyes hurt from this constant color inversion, it’s very hard even to look at it for 5 minutes.
- Headings and links of the same color? Does this truth really bother you?
Any Joomla 4 admin panel screen raises similar questions.
@korenevskiy couple of things from me (as I guess you're referring to me?)
- Yes the current template was done mostly not by front end devs
- Someone had this bad idea to use the Joomla logo colours for the template
- Contrast is required for a11y, but a11y doesn't force the colour combo (foreground/background)
- This is just a bad exercise of Bootstrap
Do I like it
Does it matter if I like it or not?
What you need to understand is that the project is not running on some kind of popularity driven approach. Obviously something unpopular shouldn't be implemented or vice versa. Anyways as Brian responded (and I guess most people misunderstood him) talk is cheap, meaning instead of talking do some pull requests. Joomla 4 will never be released unless people start contributing and fixing what's wrong...
talk is cheap, meaning instead of talking do some pull requests.
that's the constructive way
@zikkuratvk see its not hard at all - here is a proposed fix to one of your issues #27777
@brianteeman
This is certainly a step in front, but atum needs the work of a designer.
I am grateful to you that you are working on solving problems.
Due to the language barrier, I cannot say everything. I will try to convey a thought. We need to build on the fact that healthy people will work with Joomla. Healthy people can use the infrastructure for the disabled, but most likely it will not be convenient for them. That is why there is not enough work of a designer who would create a compromise.
See how easy it is to achieve something if you do something instead of talking about it.
As for accessibility I refuse to even discuss with anyone who is prepared to ignore a group of people and say that they do not matter. Imagine if joomla was only in one language...
We choose to build Joomla...We choose to build Joomla for everyone, not because it is easy, but because it is the right thing to do; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win.
but atum needs the work of a designer.
@zikkuratvk I've had only a short look on what the alternative template proposes, but I think it should sometimes need more an engineer (e.g. electrical engineering like I am) and not so many designers, then that template would not show so false figures like so and so many % up to date, which not only are rubbish because no way to really count how many % a system is up to date, % of what, but also because users will think they are safe when seing 99% but then it's the 1 % which opens the security hole ;-)
If designers had ruled the world some 7000 years ago, we would still not have the wheel invented because they decided to discuss the color before they discuss the shape .. and would still be discussing the color ;-)
@richard67 I already realized that there would be no alternative.
I point out the obvious problems of the atum. What is missing is the UI, which is important for a healthy person.
Apparently we have a different understanding of design. For me design:
Appearance.
Perception
User experience.
User interface.
For you, only the appearance.
@korenevskiy No, not only appearance. In my daily job I have to do with network control systems for power grids, where UI design is essential for quick operability in emergency situations. So the UI has to be clean and consistent and easy to operate.
But forgive me the sarcastic comment, was not related to you personally. I just got fed up a bit with the discussion in general.
As for accessibility I refuse to even discuss with anyone who is prepared to ignore a group of people and say that they do not matter. Imagine if joomla was only in one language...
@brianteeman Are you ready to take food from a child to feed those in need? You take a position, let's take away from some to give to others. It is not right.
Accessibility should be for everyone.
I will tell you about a residential building. They make staircases in it, since it is convenient and practical, ramps are built for the disabled. But no one makes the door 1.2 meters high, if a dwarf lives in the house, the door is still put 2 meters, as everyone should be comfortable. That is what I am trying to convey.
Content editing is one of Joomla's biggest challenges. Let's get a look.
- Are you sure that read more and inserting pictures are not necessary functions? What kind of UI are we talking about? This issue is in no way related to accessibility.
- Is this the most important panel on the page? What kind of designer did this? This panel has become the most important element of the page.
- Alert. I think no explanation is required here.
- Very poor visual solution with not the same elements.
Friends, good day to all.
I looked at screenshots with pre-existing ISIS variants. This is great. Evolution was on the face. The style became flat, but the perception remained high.
In my work, I always make sites using Protostar and Cassiopeia. This is convenient, all libraries are connected, Bootstrap and Jquery are connected, and Default settings are reset. Great-earth. I'm defining panels and colors and making a completely different new site. Looks different for the client. But for me, it's still the same protostar. The idea that Atum is made from ISIS doesn't mean anything. it doesn't matter what Atum is made of for the design. Design and compatibility are different planes.
@zikkuratvk Panel with tabs, this is important. But this is not more important than the save button. The TV remote always has a red off button in the corner. You can say as much as you like that the channel switching buttons are important, there is no doubt about it, but the off button should be in the corner and red. In the article editor, all elements are important, but the SAVE button is more important..
I propose to make the following amendments.
1.To make the buttons rounded.
2. To make the tabs rounded.
3. To make the tabs the same color as the page (white tab with black text.
4.Remove the gray background.
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Dear friends, understand that in the end, People use information, content, and work with text. Thus, the design should not be brighter than the text and the background of the site should not be brighter than the table with the list of materials (modules).
We make the interface for users to work with content, which means that we have a very very narrow space for design and styles.
If the text in the editor is black, If the labels in the table are blue, then we can create beautiful backgrounds with patterns, only in white, in very close white. To create drawings in shades of white. We have no right to make the background gray.
Moreover, the background should not be more bright and contrasting than the controls: buttons, menus.
@brianteeman I agree with You that removing the background of buttons is bad. From the point of view of cleanliness and beauty, you can remove the background, but by removing the background, the content of the page will suffer, colorblind people will not be able to see which switch is enabled.
The main principle is "Design should improve the perception of content and text". Buttons and switches with an active state without a background do not improve perception. The active button should be visible. And the switch should be visible at a distance of 5 meters from the screen, the color green or red.
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I suggest moving the ISIS style to Joomla 4. We will leave the side panels and large miniature images.
We can make the transferred ISIS style with enlarged buttons, and adapted to touch screens..
Yes, the background image on gray is beautiful and good, but it should be in shades of white on white.
Unfortunately, I couldn't see j4adminui/khonsu, so I copied this template to my build. I was shown an error, there is no CSS folder. Will someone show a screenshot of 4adminui/khonsu ? Спасибо.
Here on Github you can see tabs at the top of the page. It's intuitive, it's understandable. You can immediately see that these are tabs. The blue tabs in the middle of the screen in the article editor are not perceived clearly. When you take a car to kashernig or rent it, you get into someone else's car, no matter how different and foreign it was, the car always has a steering wheel, the turn switch is always on one side of the steering wheel. Ha, try getting in someone else's car and turning on the heater, or turning on the wipers. This is difficult to do, you get confused, do not understand why the Emergency button is at the top, and in another car at the bottom. But it is important that the turn signal switch is always everywhere in one place. And the brake is also always in the same place. Look at the cab of the bus driver, imagine that you suddenly put the bus driver. Immediately went?, How long will you think everything is turned on, everything is closed?
I give examples to make it clear that the blue tabs are the same as getting behind the wheel of someone else's car, where suddenly the buttons and switches are in a different place than in your personal car.
Let's not invent new tabs and their design.
Hi folks, why don't you save your breath to make as wonderful template? Moaning and knowing better is easy. Doing better is required.
This comment was created with the J!Tracker Application at issues.joomla.org/tracker/joomla-cms/27758.
we already have a «doing better» one as you know...but «own rules» block a better solution...
Maybe something like this. Draft
Draft 2
Hey, what happened to the wide switches?
Before
After
Return the wide switches
You can make a moving switch, with the name inside. But it will be already wide
accordingly, only alter the flat design.
Still, it would be cool to use the full J3 style in Atum.
I think the flat style is good. But very often, instead of a flat style, we are given a square style as style Cubisme in pictures.
@korenevskiy, the screenshots you added have improvements that I like, but I feel like they are some minimum improvements in order for us to be able to accept a design which mostly is bad. I would prefer more radical changes/improvements and I hope that people will also think towards this direction than patching again and again the existing template.
@korenevskiy Can you make a PR's for that? Everyone is free to make PRs for everything. Be careful with rtl languages or languages with longer words and smaller devices.
@impressionestudio "The people" is you! Every PR has the chance to be merged.
@impressionestudio
I agree completely.
Using these fixes, I continued on. And I realized that more and more I want to use from ISIS.
I believe that a good design will take time. I'll try to work on the design again. But I would also suggest having a 2nd template in J4 that fully matches the ISIS style. Buttons, menus, everything already set up in ISIS should be combined with ATUM, thus creating ISIS for J4.
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And tell me please. The contest for the best design was held somewhere at all?
It has been said so many times:
A lovely design on fullscreen, in ltr language, with nice but not free fonts, lots of jquery and no a11y is one thing.
Implementing it for all devices, for rtl languages or languages with very long words, with free fonts, flexible for changes in the future and a11y is another thing. So please - do it if you can.
Make your buttons and filters as you would like them - responsive on every device, for every direction, with free fonts, without jQuery or another js framework, only js and scss. And a11y. If it passes all tests, it will be merged and everyone will be happy and praise you.
I will not be happy as long as these silly figures like "xx% up to date" or similar will be shown, like I once had seen in a preview. A I said above: Not only that they are rubbish because no way to really count how many % a system is up to date, % of what, but also because users will think they are safe when seing 99% but then it's the 1 % which opens the security hole ;-)
It's like being just a little bit pregnant.
@chmst
I think you're worried about RTL. RTL support is not solved by using buttons in which the Icon and text are vertically below each other. It's not done that way. Some RTL languages don't have capital letters, so let's write English without capital letters! We will not make a bad compromise between all localizations. At the moment, the technology allows you to do without compromises and meet all the requirements.
I want to note that we are on the verge of creating a template for CMS from the very beginning of the path. And we are not trying to finish what is already working.
When you choose to localize Arabic in Joomla, Joomla should automatically reflect right to left. Icons in buttons should change places according to the localization.
Let's attach the language&localization selection button to the top status bar.
And in the joomla localization file.ini we will add the ADMIN_PAGE_CLASS property.
We can add classes and styles specific to each language.
I just placed the icon and label in the button horizontally, changed the HTML dir attribute to RTL. These same buttons are now displayed in reverse order, with text on the left and an icon on the right.
I see no reason to make an icon and text under each other.
Why don't we match a11y?
"xx% up to date"
Where do you see these numbers? I don't see them.
I saw them a few months ago in a preview of the so-called alternative template. It can be that they've removed them meanwhile.
When you choose to localize Arabic in Joomla, Joomla should automatically reflect right to left. Icons in buttons should change places according to the localization.
we do that for years... And it is totally independent from Uppercase or not.
the rtl metadata tag in each language xml is the parameter. Little by little, this is now done in Atum, and verymuch broken in Khonshu (see my test there).
Install last night release of 4.0-dev, install the Persian language and test back-end....
Switch back-end language... Play with it... Basically, before posting, please test.
for Khonshu:
The % up to date is still present in Khonshu.
See my comments here joomla-projects/j4adminui#186 (comment)
Why can't use jQuery on a site in Atum?
It may not be imported to J4 backend.
Isis doesn't meet all the requirements you're talking about?
no, isis is not J4 and isis is not a11y. Atum does.
It may not be imported to J4 backend.
Why can't I use jQuery in backend?
https://j4admintest.joomla.com/administrator/index.php?option=com_templates&view=styles
User: abaquzem
Password: AtES4XWw
Here you can see a ready-made panel with Khonsu by clicking the link.
In fact, everything works. It looks quite decent. What's wrong with the template?
Why is this template not allowed ?
Why is this template not allowed ?
because there are so far over 100 open issues with it that must be resolved
and there is something wrong with that install as it is missing all the icons - you can tell by collapsing the sidebar menu ;)
@korenevskiy Screenshot just taken from the dashboard of the Konshu backend you have linked to:
So how does it come that you asked me above where I have seen this figure? You should have seen it more often than I have.
Again: Such a figure is technical nonsense because a relative value in % (x/y*100%) always has a base y, and how shall this base y be counted for updates? Number of files? Number of extensions? Whatever you chose, it will not be appropriate. And eg. if you count number of extensions and have 1000 extensions of which 1 is not up to date, then the value might be rounded from 99.9 % to 100 % so a user will think all is ok, but this one extensions might break all. And so again I say, the only appropriate way to show if you are safe or not is to show the absolute number of extensions not being up to date, like Atum currently does.
Why can't I use jQuery in backend?
As much as I know, Joomla v4 may not be dependent of jQuery as it was years ago from mootools.
As far as I know it should still be possible to use jquery, it is just not loaded by default. But why use meanwhile old-fashioned jquery when vanilla js meanwhile is state of the art? I know that many projects want to get rid of jquery and want to use vanilla js.
The aim is for Joomla’s core JavaScript API to be vanilla and not dependent on MooTools or jQuery or whatever the next framework everyone will hate in 5 years is. The aim is not to ban use of jQuery in the backend.
because there are so far over 100 open issues with it that must be resolved
Well, the work isn't finished yet.
Joomla 4 is also not finished, but it is being prepared in production. The Khonsu template is also incomplete, so why is It already bad at the development stage?
The aim is for Joomla’s core JavaScript API to be vanilla and not dependent on MooTools or jQuery or whatever the next framework everyone will hate in 5 years is. The aim is not to ban use of jQuery in the backend.
That's what I wanted to say with my previous comment. Thanks @mbabker for explaining it again in more clear words.
because there are so far over 100 open issues with it that must be resolved
Well, the work isn't finished yet.
Joomla 4 is also not finished, but it is being prepared in production. The Khonsu template is also incomplete, so why is It already bad at the development stage?
A serious issue is, how this affects the release of 4.0. The last team worked with a template that I would call more finished than this one and it took 10 months to finish it. We can't release a 4.0 Beta before the template isn't finished and merged and thus you can expect a delay of about a year for the beta. That would have additional consequences, like for example we would most likely need a new release lead.
@korenevskiy Screenshot just taken from the dashboard of the Konshu backend you have linked to:
So how does it come that you asked me above where I have seen this figure? You should have seen it more often than I have.
Again: Such a figure is technical nonsense because a relative value in % (x/y*100%) always has a base y, and how shall this base y be counted for updates? Number of files? Number of extensions? Whatever you chose, it will not be appropriate. And eg. if you count number of extensions and have 1000 extensions of which 1 is not up to date, then the value might be rounded from 99.9 % to 100 % so a user will think all is ok, but this one extensions might break all. And so again I say, the only appropriate way to show if you are safe or not is to show the absolute number of extensions not being up to date, like Atum currently does.
I believe that you have drifted away.
The problem, many Joomlers have with Atum, is not the information it shows but the way it shows it.
If an information like "100% updated" is wrong, then we will decide all together to substitute it with something useful. But you have to admit that this information looks aesthetically pleasing in Konshu.
On the contrary, the information displayed in Atum dashboard is probably more useful, but it looks aesthetically bad. The whole template looks bad, not only the dashboard.
So the big problem to solve about the admin template of J4 is not what information we will show in the dashboard and the rest admin pages, but to find some rules (design) to make this information look nice and comfortable to the eye.
After the above is solved, I am pretty sure that we will agree very fast which is the most useful information to show in the admin dashboard.
I said before that the Atum template is bad as it concerns the design. So this possibly means that a lot of work will be cancelled. But this is natural because it is design. It happens all the time.
I am bad at design. When the website I create does not look aesthetically good to me, I just take a big breath and start with a new idea.
@impressionestudio I agree with you. You're right.
@brianteeman my screenshots do not change the template functionally, and do not change the sequence and state of the active elements. Is it possible to make corrections in the Atum template that I have given in my screenshots above right now? Perhaps with some modifications. I want to note that due to the background lighting, the content has become more receptive.
@korenevskiy You're free to make PRs to improve Atum like still many others do. The template isn't chiseled in stone. Changes are absolutely possible.
Just make sure the requirements are met.
I believe that you have drifted away.
Yes, my complaint about the "updated %" figure was a bit off topic regarding design. What I wanted to do with it was to point out that Konshu not only introduces a new template design but also new functionality like this figure, but the new functionality seems to be made by designers and not to mention security and technical aspects.
jwaisner
- | Status | New | ⇒ | Discussion |
| Build | staging | ⇒ | 4.0-dev |
@brianteeman I don't know how to work with GitHub, I don't know if it's possible to commit my fixes or if they just need to be attached here in messages. I also don't know how to use SASS.
How can I offer my template style corrections for the trial and test to the friends gathered here?
.
I assume Your last animation is a simple save in grayscale? Is this how colorblind people see it?
I want to note that this animation has poor contrast. And all my personal comments described are also without corrections. I don't insist that my fixes are perfect, but they definitely improve the interface significantly. However, changing the style values is very small. I also still recommend reducing the number of blocks and rectangles and making the blocks transparent. I also recommend making the background white. White background to increase contrast. That will only be for the good.
I'll show @angieradtke my sketch sketches.
To be honest, joomla was once a good choice. The focus was into building cool stuff and play around with it. As far my exp got me is, that time consuming is a key.
We got driften more and more into wordpress. Not because the apps or easier to devs (good docs), only about how long it takes to take the jobs done.
Stackideas and joomshaper are 2 companies who are a good value for the community. And yet we discuss here about templates. Wouldn't it be to ship the atum and the joomshaper template together out? I tired both of them and neither one is "great" but atum is so "different" in a bad way.
First of all colors. It must be subtil. The focus ist no where, colors everywhere no prios. To much data with no value at the dashbord. There is joomshaper better. Less text mor graphic input.
To be honest i dont care if it is shipped with atum. The important part is, that it must be simple enough for new devs or at least admins. Thats the key value from wordpress, wix and such stuff. It must be logical enough to get the orientation for the user.
I would prefere, that more energy will be put into the core functions. Perhaps else joomla 4 wont be released till 2021. We recommend our customers to go with wordpress, just because of the time consuming. It has less functions then joomla and cant do everything, but it has the things for small websites. With that in mind, it got a fast change managment. Joomla on other site isn't so fluid. Not because of the lack of devs. Only about the discussions like in #186. I love joomla, but it has no real development which could be tracked.
Is there any value in keeping this open?
The article is written in German, but a very interesting article:
this link does not work
use this one with google english translation
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr-CA&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fjoomlainfo.ch%2F2020%2F02%2F07%2Fwelches-admin-ui-soll-es-denn-sein%2F&sandbox=1
@Shorty0811 If you look at the current template you will see that it makes that blog post and this issue irrelevant
here is a screenshot of Atum as of last nightly build.
i'm in favour to close this one since a lot of improvements have happened and other are coming since this was open
I see some improvements in the template but it still remains very poor aesthetically.
It isn't a template that will promote Joomla 4 and I am not sure if it will succeed to do that.
Currently, for me, Joomla 4 seems to be very fresh and powerful in code and technologies, but very poor in the admin appearance. In other words, the admin template makes Joomla 4 look older than Joomla 3, despite the fresh code. Joomla 4 uses many of the latest technologies and development principles (and I think that it is ahead from other CMSs) but the admin template destroys all that good work.
The last decades, the appearance is more important than ever. In most cases, the effort for creating a product (car, clothe, mobile, furniture etc) is spent more on how it looks than what it really provides. In order a product to succeed, it is more promising to look good, no matter what it really provides, than to be very good but not showing it. The problem with the J4 admin template is that we are not showing to the common developer/user that Joomla 4 provides more.
I am closing this one, I would love to hear what we can improve but most of the things here are said in a way that I don't see what are the next steps to improve the template. If you have an issue please make a concrete proposal we can discuss and work on.
| Status | Discussion | ⇒ | Closed |
| Closed_Date | 0000-00-00 00:00:00 | ⇒ | 2020-02-26 11:58:24 |
| Closed_By | ⇒ | rdeutz |
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