First of all - this is all good feedback thankyou. There are some "won't fixes" here thought

Answer to 3/4

We've made a conscious decision to not treat modules and plugins the same way. Modules are often created multiple times (advertising sales etc etc) whereas plugins are traditionally more one off configurations. As a result we've made a conscious decision to only have a module link and the plugin link is on the system menu

Answer to 6

It's still a WIP with the new menu - but we plan to remove the submenu - have the single menu for everything.

I'm willing to hear opinions on 8 - but they are completely separate functionality

Also can we open a specific issue for the first issue you mentioned (the menu jumping) which is clearly just an out and out bug that requires fixing. Thanks :)

@PhocaCz can you please open a new Issue for Issue 1?

Hi,

(1)
See: #22108

(3),(4),(5),(8)
My workflow in Joomla! 4 is slower and more confusing in comparison to Joomla! 3. :-(

(6)

It's still a WIP with the new menu - but we plan to remove the submenu - have the single menu for everything.

If you see the first GIF here, you will see that menu with some large list of items can make the menu UX worse, (even when ignoring the jumping/flickering problem). Mostly global configuration or component options are too long that adding them to one signle menu as a submenu will be a work for magician :-(

(8)

I'm willing to hear opinions on 8 - but they are completely separate functionality

If you click Install - Extensions or Manage - Extensions - you will be always redirected to one component (com_installer) with the same submenu but both groups are located in different parts (it is a matter of taste but can be confusing for users after upgrading and coming from Joomla! 3 where both are in the same menu group.

Hi @PhocaCz, about point 5

I'm working in an agency with developers and copywriters, marketers and SEOs, etc.
"Save & Close" is far less clicked than "Save".
"Save & Close" is used only when an article is ready. (Clicking "Save" often is real lifesaver)
So, IMHO, this UX/UI is good.

About point 8, you are right, it is a mess... but it's a WIP (i hope).

Hi @simbus82
did you read the post: #14326, it is not about what is better, if Save or Save & Close, it is about logic of the Save & Close button. Not about comparison of Save and Save & Close or its statistics.

Save & Close Button is here to save you one click. With one click you do two operations: 1) Save and 2) Close. Hiding it into the submenu means one click more (to open the submenu).

With adding the Save & Close button to submenu, it loses its essence. Its essence is to save you one click which is not more possible in submenu (one click to open submenu, second to click on Save & Close button).

And when something breaks logic, it is not UX friendly.

It is the same like you will create a shortcut on your PC desktop to some program and then you will move this shortcut out of the desktop (e.g. to some folder). Then this shortcut loses its essence.

Jan

For me "Save & Close" can be hidden without any fear. (In articles!)

One click on "Save" after filling the article (you must double check content, alaways!), and if you don't do any other edits... one click on "Close", it is out of any submenu and with a great visibility. This is UX.

You have to analyze the full workflow of content creation, not only the mechanical UI based on logic or programming.
This is too much "a developer vision": then we forget that the CMS must be used by copywriters, marketers, "newbies", etc. Never used HotJar inside Joomla Admin? Give it a try!

@mbabker

So in other words (very simplified):

• Saving one click + Saving one HTTP request = 100% of what we can save
• Skipping of saving one click + Saving one HTTP request = e.g 80% of what we can save (the ratio between both can be different, let's say it is 80% for HTTP request and 20% for one click - just an example)

So we will give up on 20% due to the UI, even in case, in edit view there are not so much buttons like in list view? (there is much more place in comparison to list view)

@simbus82

You have to analyze the full workflow of content creation, not only the mechanical UI based on logic or programming.

The post #14326 is not based on my ideas but on community discussion.

If your viewpoint is that every action should be one click accessible

No, it isn't, as written many times here in the discussions:

1. not based on my viewpoint
2. focused only on logic of the "Save & Close" button

which means the only viable options are either the present single button with dropdown or keeping every action as separate buttons.

Yes, I understand and agree.

If you keep the current dropdown solution, if you make "Save and Close" the primary action

No, this is not the purpose of this topic or #14326 in any way.

The purpose of this topic or #14326 is to say, that Joomla! 4 Save & Button lost some part of functionality in comparison to Joomla! 3.x.

I don't say that the argument: "Ok, we can live with it because of new dropdown function which is much more important" is wrong but maybe someone can have better idea how to solve it. It is still only feedback (maybe too much discussed but most of the discussion is about explaining what exactly is meant)

bunch of different people who have a bunch of different workflows.

then the new workflows to the rescue ?

What makes "Save and Close" so special in relation to other tasks, such as "Save as Copy" or "Save and New", that mean it should be given precedence over other tasks?

Save & Close is completely different button. It is a final button, confirming the end of your edit. Even you didn't do any change, you mostly click Save & Close button to be 100% sure, nothing will be lost. Mostly the last and very important button.

Does it really make sense to have multiple save buttons on the toolbar, to allow "special" tasks to have one less click to reach them, or is it appropriate to group all save actions as is the case now?

Hard to explain, something like ten finger writer can never explain to not ten finger writing users why is ten finger writing so important. Workflow is 10x faster and the speed is not about fast cooperation of fingers but about your eyes too, which can read the source text without losing time by looking at the keyboard. So yes it makes sense.

Basically, aside from having to retrain your muscle memory, are you really losing time/effort/focus/etc. on clicking twice to reach Save and Close in 4.0 in comparison to only one click in 3.x and earlier

Yes, otherwise #14326 and the base discussion would never occur.

Ok

I agree to @PhocaCz and it was the design concept to have a Save Button and Save & Close with dropdown actions. It was dicussed with @wilsonge and and many others at JAB and should be done like that. See #21989

Hi @coolcat-creations
#21989 looks really great, is there anything I can do to support this proposal (e.g. testing, etc.)?

Deleted my comments from this thread (apologies for now having broken it). I feel like my opinions on UI/UX related matters are going too far against the grain from what people want, so there's no point in continuing to debate it and therefore my feedback is unnecessary.

@mbabker
I don't have any problems with your comments, unfortunately I don't know the background so I cannot understand your comments fully.

Unfortunately no ideas about UI/UX team in Joomla! so you need to know that some comments are based on not sufficient information (for example, there is an assumption that there is some UI/UX team which will make the final decision about UI/UX changes based on Github proposals and comments) ?

There is no UX team, hence my repeated backhanded comments about a lack of UX related testing or data or that Joomla's UX is based on someone deciding "this looks good".

Ok, but "this looks good" doesn't mean, it will be 100% agreed and merged. It is just one of many possible comments. When I say, this completely solves what I have asked, still doesn't mean it is the right way. And unfortunately when there is no UI/UX team, we cannot freeze all possible UI/UX changes, there must be found another way how to decide about UI/UX proposals. ?

Set to "closed" on behalf of @jwaisner by The JTracker Application at issues.joomla.org/joomla-cms/22103

This discussion has ran its course. the J4 administration UI/UX has been overhauled. Please check the latest build and provide feedback.