thanks Roberto - works well for me

Nice improvement. Works well here too.

Great ! Thanks a lot @phproberto
That will look just great together with search tools and yet to be committed for 3.2.0 beta 2 #2111

Do we have a tracker for this?

@phproberto
Could we, instead of entirely relying on the admin menus when on non-mobile screens, display the sidebar horizontally in the same way as it was in 2.5? It was really simple and convenient.

Added to Feature tracker http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/?action=TrackerItemEdit&tracker_item_id=32407&start=0

@infograf768 That's duplicating navigation, and putting it back in a very obtrusive way, which is contrary to UX principles. Additionally, the navigation placement just below the title of the sub-menu is a UX-non-sense.

If you really want it visible at all times, then to avoid duplication, if you add it there, then you should remove the sub-menu, which really doesn't make sense as admin menus are the backbone of our admin area. And additionally, to avoid obtrusion and non-sense placement, it should really not be below the title, but in a discrete sub-menu stripe just below the menu (and still remove sub-menus).

Thus I personally think that the implementation of @phproberto makes perfect sense. As it's tested by 2 testers it's ready for review by plt.

Looks good, hope its well received by the User base.

Duplicate navigation or not - imho it will be obtrusive to remove what people is used to have.
Both developers and users have been adapting to this menu for over a year.

I like the changed interface from what I've seen (I really do), but can't see all the implications. Are there config options for this? What happens with extensions using the submenu?

Would it make sense to give the users the choice themselves, by turning this in to a template parameter (defaulting to hide)?

There is NO change for any extension using the submenu

Don't take me wrong here: For me, status-quo of 3.1 is worst, as it looses prime space horizontally to the left on the whole verticality of the page, so a Big area lost

What's most important for me is usability:
Without the side-bar, the eye concentrates on the user's content instead of a less important navigation.

My personal preference are by decreasing order of liking:

1. Much prefered: Remove side-bar navigation where search tools are present
2. Still very ok: Move side-bare navigation to top a horizontal menu (above title and just below the top menu, in a similar stype as the top-menu, so it looks like a navigation item)
3. Not great: Move side-bars as in 2.5 below title as JM posted screenshot.
4. Worst: keep as is and continue loosing prime space horizontally to the left.

I have actually thought about this a lot since 1.5. There are a few UI issues with the implementation of extension sub menus since 1.5. At the moment this proposal and the current situation do not solve them. I'll explain a few things here and leave it to other more capable thinks to make a decision.

Think about large extensions
Do not forget that whatever is implemented as default in core components, should be translatable to other extensions as well.

I believe one of Kyle's reasons to move the submenu from horizontal to vertical was for larger extensions to be able to have a place to add their long menu's. Extensions like Virtuemart, Kunena, RSEvents Pro all used to have (and maybe still have) their own type of navigation, and most are not that user friendly.

For example RSEvents Pro is very confusing as the horizontal menu constantly changes depending which menu item you open. And you need to use the "Back" button in the toolbar to get back to the previous state of the menu, which is also incorrect UI. If you need an example, I believe Nicholas also used the "Back" button trick in his extensions.

These extensions have a lot of menu items, and they would not fit in the Joomla! 2.5 style horizontal menu. Virtuemart therefor has used its own vertical menu for years.

If we remove the sidebar, how do we expect larger extensions (5 component pages or more) to show their menu. I agree that Components > Extension name > Submenu item from the top navigation is not favourable or correct UI.

Position of toolbar, component name and navigation incorrect
Besides that, there is the issue that the position of different elements on the page has been incorrect from a UI standpoint for years. We don't have to fix this now, but I would like to bring it to everyones attention so we can at least think about it.

In HTML it is a best practice to create a page with the elements of that page in the same order in the code as they are shown in the browser. So, your footer's code should be a the bottom of the .html file, because its at the bottom of your website.

(This comment is about the actual rendering, not the code.)

The same applies to UI. In Joomla!, since forever, we did this wrong. We had the Joomla! administrator navigation where you open "Article" for example, and then in that view the order (in J3):

• My location (Article Manager, Articles Overview)
• Options I have (the toolbar)
• Other pages I can go to (submenu with Articles, Categories etc)
• Data I a can manipulate (list with articles)

The correct order would be:

• My location (Article Manager, Articles Overview)
• Other pages I can go to (submenu with Articles, Categories etc)
• Options I have (the toolbar)
• Data I a can manipulate (list with articles)

Or:

• Other pages I can go to (submenu with Articles, Categories etc)
• My location (Article Manager, Articles Overview)
• Options I have (the toolbar)
• Data I a can manipulate (list with articles)

Here are a few old screenshots when I was experimenting with other options in Joomla! 2.5. In this one, you see a possible solution in the middle (ignore names :-))

And this is a possible solutions I was playing with:

I think the scope of this PR is misunderstood: The purpose of this PR is not to remove side-bars everywhere, just there where they don't make sense anymore, as side-filters have been removed, which is in the few items lists where search tools have been implemented (content, categories for instance have really meaningless side-bars now).

@chillcreations Unrelated to this PR: if your last possibility would put the sub-menu above the title (and possibly attached to the main nave instead of the title, it would work much better imho. (even though i still think it should just be removed and stay just as submenu). I like Nokku's approach with the top tabs btw.

Although maybe a bit offtopic, I vote for removing the sidebar. Then use a bootstrap styled topmenu with the ability to use submenu items. The submenu items really improves the usability and possibilities. Look for example how nicely Akeeba Subscriptions uses this topmenu. You could even implement much more (sub)menu items with this approach and order them really well.

Then I suggest to keep the new search tools functionality as is (I didn't include it in the screenshot).

I agree with @infograf768 that on mobiles, the dropdown menu can be nasty and those sidebar menus are really helpful for navigating. Ever tried to navigate to com_contact -> categories on a mobile phone?

A solution could be to only show the navigation on mobiles and hide it for desktops. On mobiles it shows on top and not as a sidebar anyway.
Imho it could also be shown on desktops, as I find it useful to have those links present. If duplicate menus are such an issue (which I doubt it really is), I'd rather remove the submenus from the admin menu instead :)
I'm sure we could find a good place to show the submenu links.

I agree that the sidebar is a bad place for the submenu. Especially when the filters are moved to the top again.

"A solution could be to only show the navigation on mobiles and hide it for desktops."
@Bakual thats exactly what the PR does - please check the PR not the comments

Beat is suggesting the samething as I am in less words :-)

I am aware this PR is not about removing it everywhere. I'm just saying if it is removed in the Article Manager for another solution, for that solution we should consider (a) larger extensions (support submenu's likes Jurian says) and (b) a better UI.

Made a quick mockup of what I think Beat and I are suggesting.

@jurianeven Yes, submenu's are a good solution to over complicated menu's. A horizontal menu can also be a nice solution to force extension developers to have a clear navigation with a maximum of 5-10 top menu items and not 33. But the location of that menu is important and according to UI principles should not be under the page name and page options like it is in AK Subs. The navigation should be on top.

@brianteeman Stupid me, sorry. I should read more carefully, there is even a picture in the initial comment which shows the menu on mobiles.

I would still like to see the submenu somewhere present on the top for easy switching between the views. As I find the menu sometimes tedious even on desktops. But I can certainly also live with it being removed. Better than on an otherwise empty sidebar anyway :)

@chillcreations I agree on top is better (above the toolbar). I think Nicholas did this this way because he can't place them on top of it because the backend template needs to be altered for that.

Exactly @jurianeven it is a UI issue that needs to be addressed on core level, not extension level. His solution is actually not bad for the possibilities he has currently in 2.5 and 3.1.

Made a quick mockup of what I think Beat and I are suggesting.

I think this discussion gets at the heart of the issue. We really need to be able to customize the admin menu. Please see joomla-cms/start-here#10

We do indeed @betweenbrain which is why I brought that up but for now we can only work with what we have. I prefer to concentrate on making existing code work well

Provided that this PR is not a general removal of left sub-menus, but only for those where Search Tools have been implemented, namely Content and Categories (where the side-menus are neither significative nor really useful):

Reading through the feedbacks above which are discussing a general removal of sidebars (which is not the intent of this PR) and general sidebar menus improvements (which is not the scope either), instead of this specific one I am not seeing concerns expressed specifically against this PR.

Maybe it's the right moment for a review of feedbacks above and a decision for 3.2.0 RC for the specific Content and Categories side-menus ?

I guess this is the last call for review and/or feedbacks for 3.2.0 RC (and thus stable too and thus 3.5.0 too).

In all honesty, this is really something we should have finalized 2 weeks ago, but as you know, there's just been too much on the table. Fact is we've still got several feature patches which will most likely go into 3.2.1 or 3.2.2, so at this point, I think we just sit on this for a couple of weeks, focus on what's in master now, and revisit this when there isn't so much rush or stress affecting all of us.

@mbabker That's a good plan

I suggest, instead of getting rid of the very convenient sidebar, to implement, if possible, its collapsibility.
See http://multi-level-push-menu.make.rs/

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I meant collapse on the left (for LTR) and right (on RTL)

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Personally I wouldnt want to do that as it wont achieve the objective of
making the table full screen width

On 26 August 2014 09:05, infograf768 notifications@github.com wrote:

I meant collapse on the left (for LTR) and right (on RTL)

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#2316 (comment).

Brian Teeman
Co-founder Joomla! and OpenSourceMatters Inc.
http://brian.teeman.net/

Modern web applications are getting rid of sidebars and include them nicely into their top navigation, to have a vertically linear flow of reading.

Also complicated UI controls, like collapsables are also beeing avoided by modern UX in favor of context-based in-place controls.

In short, side-columns and UI-controls are out since mobile-first design took over.

So in short, I agree with Brian. :-D

I am closing this in favour of #4197

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